Q: The Rubinoos Shows I've seen, especially from the seventies, seem to be primarily about energy. The Old Grey Whistle Test is just totally berserk. (Director's Commentary: Speaking of Berserk, here is a Jan. 9 photo of Tommy at Moleman Studios in Sacramento. Click on the photo to see it up bigger.)
TD: Yeah. We don't have that kind of energy any more.
Q: That's a pretty astonishing tape. You always seem so mild mannered. Clearly, there's another side. I think you actually made Dick Clark say "shit" when you were on American Bandstand.
TD: When I jumped on his back. Which he was not expecting.
Q: When I saw that, I remember thinking, "Geez, was Tommy on weed or what?" Especially because of the mask.
TD: It was fun doing that show.
Q: That sums up the Rubinoos. Fun.
TD: I guess that really was the guiding thing. If it was fun, it was good.
Q: And there was a thing where we looked at a lot of bands that were older than us and kind of thought they were sticks in the mud. Overly serious. It was at that point where there had to be the long guitar solos and the long drum solos. Every band was doing that and it was like you had do that. Whereas we would go see, say, Butch Wax and the Glasspacks, who were doing all this 50s material, which was one of the things that got us into doing that kind of stuff. We loved those guys! They were putting on a show! Did you ever see them? They were kind of a Sha Na Na, but not as slick, but absolutely as entertaining. A little more ragged edged. But, just fantastic. They would do bits between songs and wear costumes and we just loved that material. All that stuff seemed so much fun. The whole doo-wop thing was so ridiculous, but so great at the same time. Which to this day, I still...that stuff is some of my favorite music. I mean, the whole thing of singing nonsense syllables whereever you can, musically it kind of frees you up. Love that stuff.
Q: So what were some other bands you found entertaining in those days - or anytime since?
TD: Man. Well, in a completely different thing, Toots and the Maytals. I don't know what that was, but it was giving it up in a way different way. The groove. The way those guys sang together. And he (Toots Hibbert) was just out there totally looking the audience in the eye. I don't know. I just remember that being one of the best shows I've ever seen. I remember it being at the Long Branch. John had just come back from a Rolling Stones show. I don't remember what year it was, but it was a totally bad show. Everybody agreed that The Stones really sucked that year. They were not trying. The tour before was supposed to be totally fantastic. He got back from a really disappointing Stones show to that Toots and the Maytals Show and I remember him ranting about how much better it was than watching The Stones, who were just kind of going through the motions. Another show I remember was seeing Chuck Berry, with Chubby Checker opening for him. I remember the really fascinating about that was Chubby Checker was so professional and slick, like a Vegas act. But, really kind of dull. And then Chuck Berry came on. And there were so many ragged edges to his show, including the fact that he was just picking up the band in whatever town he came to. It was the loosest thing. They were just expected to know his songs. Which, of course, if you even have your high school diploma in rock and roll, you probably do know all of those songs.
Q: Here's the thing. And this brings up another idea for guys who are in bands like me. They "know" those songs sort of, but a lot of guys don't respect the style. They think: three chords, Chuck Berry, simple. Don't even need to practice. Do you remember in the film Hail, Hail Rock and Roll where Chuck scolds Keith Richards about how he's playing the opening to "Carol?" Keith grew up playing that stuff! Also, there was kind of an Alpha Male, big dog, little dog thing going on.
TD: Oh, that was definitely part of it. For me, Keith plays that stuff awfully well. And it's like he's definitely done the schoolwork. He's got enough respect for the style to really play it well. I mean, that's a thing of Chuck thinking it oughta be exactly like Chuck plays it. Which, I don't know about that. But, whatever. It was definitely a fascinating look at that issue.
Q: Let's say you're in a band that plays James Brown covers. You don't have to do it exactly like James and the JBs. But there are elements to that music that make it what it is that often get ignored.
TD: Well, there's the levels of different cover bands. Like there's sort of your pick up band that plays the bad version of "I Feel Good" that you've heard a million times where everybody in the band is playing that (signiture) horn lick and everybody's over-playing. Or like "Respect." If you listen to the original, there's a thing that the drums and bass are doing that is the groove of that record. And if you're not playing that groove, it's like half of what that song is or half of what that record is, is not there. It doesn't mean that it's automatically bad. But 99 percent of the time, it's not going to be as good, because they haven't worked anything out. They're just playing. So that's your cover band that's just a pick up thing. Nothing wrong with anybody doing that. What the hell. But compare that to SRO (Dick Bright's SRO), where we listened to the records and really copped the parts that made those records happen. We changed them after having learned them. We'd come up with our own endings. But for me, it was a really interesting thing of coming into a situation where (the drummer and the bass player)...they really knew that stuff, like P-Funk and Prince. They really knew that stuff. I had to go and learn the parts on the records. Or having to even cop the parts of Madonna records. Which, a lot of that stuff, I would kind of pooh-pooh on hearing it for the first time...It's easy to go "Oh, well, Madonna sucks." It's real easy for people to do that because, stylistically, it's not their bag. I think there's also a tendency for people to look at music that younger people are listening to, to automatically think that it sucks. Partially, it's a defensive thing: "Well, the music that I grew up with is so much superior to anything that's out now."
Q: You've had to play some rap and hip-hop things, records that are built from samples and looped grooves that now you have to execute live. There are some interesting about that music.
TD: It's way more of, like, a collage. A lot of of the stuff that we've done, where we've had to sort of cop that stuff, taught me about how that's working. You're taking samples that were not obviously made for...well, they're not somebody playing to the thing that you're working on. And they have to be made to fit. It's really fascinating how...I remember talking to Bongo Bob about that, too. (Director's Commentary: This is Bongo Bob Smith, who runs a music and post-production house in Sacramento. Bongo has worked with lots of big names over the years. He produces some of the best commercial music in the country.) It creates tonal things that you wouldn't...that are unexpected. It's startling, sometimes. And also startling rhymic things, too, when you're playing around with that. The thing of bringing a loop in on the 'wrong beat.' It's (the sample) starting on the 'one.' But you stick the 'one' on the 'two.' There's so many things about all these different styles that, when you get into them, teach you to respect those styles, you know.
Q: I notice that a lot of guys who are good players can have the damndest time playing country.
TD: Yeah. There's another one. People think that it's easy because it has less chords, or because it has certain stock things. The ultimate example of that being the blues. People think that blues is easy to play. I don't know what that's from. Maybe a cursory listening to it. "Oh, it's only three chords. Therefore, there's nothing to this music." Then there's the thing we talked about before. The thing where the bar lines can be anywhere and it makes it really interesting. The same with country music. Where they'll just...well, it depends what they decide to do with the vocal. Sometimes there will be just a couple of extra words that'll make it like a bar of "six" instead of "four" and it's great. It just makes it a cool thing, instead of locked in a little box of "we're doing 12 bar blues and it's got to be 12 bars every time."
Q: Jimmy Reed records will sometimes have like 13 bars or 12 1/2 bars in between the verses that are strictly 12 bars. Just because he has something else he has to testify to.
TD: Yeah.
Q: So let's get down to brass tacks. Why is it that so many bands, especially geezer bands, slaughter Johnny B. Goode? It's not just because you're sick of hearing it.
TD: No. Because when I hear the original, I'm not sick of hearing it. I heard it the other day. It sounds to fresh and incredible. It's just like, "Oh my God, what a magic piece of music making that happened at that moment." One thing that gets lost as music changed from rock and roll to rock is the fact that the shuffle against the straight (feel) is such a tension producing thing. (With) so many of those Chuck Berry records...you've got drummers who are coming from a jazz background and always have like a slight shuffle. Not what we think of as a full (shuffle). Kind of what we would think of in MIDI as a 33 percent (shuffle). It's almost straight, but it's "shufflized." You know, a little bit of shuffle against the guitar being a totally straight "eights" and maybe a piano being (slightly) shuffled. You put those together and you get a rhythmic thing that is really odd. Little Richard records, same thing.
Q: With many cover bands, "Johnny B. Goode" is very heavy footed and plodding.
TD: It's a rock groove. To me, that's only half of what that original record is.
Q: James Brown often has a pinch of shuffle. That what makes the record great.
TD: The thing that feels "wrong" to a lot of people. Now, the a version of "Long Tall Sally," the one by The Beatles is still like is not quite like what you hear rock bands playing. It's not quite Little Richard's thing. But it's still fantastic sounding and I've never heard anybody else get it.
Q: The Beatles copped American music and did in their own way, but it was still very authentic. They captured something that made it right, but added their own thing.
TD: Definitely. They'd been studying it. Which doesn't mean that they're gonna imitate it and do an exact imitation, which is, you know, it's great that they didn't. But they've studied it enough to where they're making something really amazing out of it.
Q: So, what do you have to do to make a living these days?
TD: Boy. Let's see. I'm wearing several hats. I probably could making a living (playing guitar) if I was determined to just make living playing guitar, but I would hate it. You know, I could probably get enough gigs, because I know a lot of guys who do that. But, you know, would I want to play five gigs a week? The gig pig thing would drive me insane. The amount I'm doing it now, I actually enjoy playing. That's only like three times a month. And there's also a social element to it. That's really fun. Of course, I'm doing the studio thing. The week, all the little girls are coming in to do karaoke Christmas records. And, for the most part, I find that to be fun, because anytime I'm doing stuff in the studio, it's fun. Working with The Mighty Echoes has been really fun. I love doing that - arranging vocals. And of course, doo wop is near and dear to my heart. So that's always fun. And of course all the stuff we've been doing.
Q: A fun time in it's own way.
TD: What else? It's seems like every week there's some other weird thing.
Q: Like "Kingtinued." Tell is a little about that, because that is what will be on your tombstone.
TD: There is this guy, Christopher, who used to take lessons from me. I never had really given lessons, but he was this guy who used to come to the Rubes shows. And he said "can I come take lessons from you?" I said, "I don't really give lessons, but O.K. come on over." This back - I was living at Dan's house. This would be before I moved to L.A....maybe like 1980 or '79 or something. He called me years later. He just wanted to make records. He started hiring me to do these projects. Like he'd call me and say "Kids sit in the backseat of the car (listening to records or tapes), so can you write me a song about safety in the car for kids?" He was going to try to shop that to the safety bureau. O.K., so write a song about that, record it, send it to him. And then he wanted to do this thing, "I want to make a CD for kids driving in the car with their parents."
Q: I have that. You gave it to me. It has "Dodge Veg-O-Matic" on it.
TD: Yes! So all the songs were anything to do with driving in the car. He hired me to do that. Then he called and said he had this idea he wanted to do: if Elvis was still alive and he was singing songs from today. I thought, "Well, that's a pretty weird idea, but sure!" At first, he wanted to use stuff like U2 and all this stuff. That was the once place I said, "that doesn't sound very fun. To tell you the truth, it would be way better to do what Elvis would REALLY be doing if he were alive now, which is like "Tears in Heaven" or "Candle in the Wind" or "Achy Breaky Heart." That's when we made the first "Kingtinued" album. I would do the tracks, then we sent them to this guy in Kalamazoo, MI, Doug Church, the voice of Elvis. He would take it into a studio and send us back the vocals. So that's where the "Kingtinued" album came from. Christopher made some ads for TV: "Ever wonder what The Kind would be doing today? Well...wonder NO MORE!" So there's another project.
Q: You ended up doing more "Kingtinued" CDs. What were the Elvis guys like?
TD: The thing that really varies is the vocal ability. I think they all have a commitment to looking like Elvis, or their version of looking like him. That was fairly amazing. I remember the one guy who came up from Memphis in full regalia and had a limo pick him up at the front door to take him to the airport. That was astounding. It was funny talking to him because no matter where the conversation started going, he would pull it right back to Elvis. "Speaking of that ball team, you know Elvis' favorite ball team, blah, blah, blah. It as just insane."
Q: Do you ever sometimes just sit there an look at yourself and say "man, what a life.?"
TD: I just feel lucky, to tell you the truth, in life in general. I just feel like I really like what I do. I love the people I get to do stuff with and life is just good.
Q: Unlike so many people in the business. You and Jon and Al never seem bitter about the fact that The Rubinoos never made it like a huge U2 Band. Nobody never seems the least bit upset by this.
TD: That was, for me, never at the top of the list of goals. It was always way more important to me to be doing stuff where I really feel like we liked it and had fun, than...well, I'm not saying there wasn't a thing where we wanted to have hit records, that would be great. But a lot of that was it would allow us to continue to do what we were having so much fun doing, you know? So...I don't think I've ever felt bitter. Why are we owed anything from the world?
Q: Well, because you exist right? Isn't that the American way?
TD: I feel lucky. I think there's a lot of bands who had it just as together as us who didn't have the breaks that we had. We had a lot of unlucky breaks, but we had a lot of lucky breaks, too. We got to play on American Bandstand. It could have easily been where we never got to to that or go on tour or do anything. We were lucky that even happened. For that matter, I feel lucky to have grown up in a place where being creative was really encouraged. That also could have been not true. I could have had parents who discouraged that. I remember having discussions with my dad. He was of the opinion that if I really wanted to do music, I better go to school to learn it. But luckily, he also was not going to shove that down my throat. That was also lucky.
Q: You did learn to read and write music fluently. You learned about harmony and theory. How important was that to surviving as a musician? If you didn't know that stuff, you'd be cutting yourself off from a lot of the work you do.
TD: That's true. In terms of arranging. Well, it depends. There's two skills. Like the Mighty Echoes stuff. I don't write that down on paper. Except "The Christmas Song," you know "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire." That I put on paper. The thing with paper, if you're like doing horn sections and stuff, makes it easier to...in other words, when it's too complicated to hold in your head, that's when paper makes it easier. If there's too many parts. Or sometimes I will do that just for the sake of...like on the (Mighty Echoes) Christmas records, on the Phil Spector tune, I just write the basic chords down of where the three parts are going...so I see where each guy is landing. Which is kind of like, I'm getting from here to here, so when I comes to the second verse, I remember which guy is doing which part. And, I suppose that is pretty helpful. I think everything you learn can lend itself to being helpful. One thing for me that's been really helpful is learning the technical end of recording. Being able to run MIDI stuff.
Q: And being able to engineer your own stuff and knowing how to get good sounds.
TD: It just seems like it's endless, the amount of stuff you can learn...I think it's true: the more you learn, the more you realize that you don't know. Kind of like what we were talking about with the blues. The only reason I think people don't have a respect for the style or realize how complicated it is, is that they really haven't learned enough about it. The more you learn about it, the more rich and complex you find out that it is.
Q: Tell me about some of the gigs you do - the more unusual ones. The like Doggie Doo show.
TD: Yeah. The yearly Dick Bright Bark and Wine Ball. You have a roomful of dogs dressed in their finery. You know there's gonna be some accidents. I always feel for the guys on the clean up crew, which is not after the show, but during it. Last time, the doggie dump occurred, and people were actually dancing in it. A hole is opening up on the dance floor. People come running over with their little pooper scooper and plastic bags. But, you know, there is the fun of the fact that you have to do as many dog related songs as possible. Like "Puppy Love" and "I'll Be Doggone" and then, Dick's suggestions like "Dog of the Bay," like that. Talk about milking it.
Q: Aren't you gonna do "Hey Bulldog" by The Beatles.
TD: No. Because...the other guys in the band probably don't know that song enough. It's be slightly more obscure. What other dog songs? "Walking The Dog," of course.
Q: Speaking of absurdity, let's talk about the point where showmanship and musical skill unite to form one entity known as Psychotic Pineapple.
TD: They are a thing. I mean, originally, it was me, Jon (Rubin) on drums, Jon Seabury on bass, and Henrikas on lead vocals. We did a few gigs. We went out and played (on the street) in whatever distasteful clothes we could find at Value Villiage with little...portable amps, playing songs like "Pushin' Too Hard." I guess what would be called garage rock, you know. "From Home" by The Troggs, which had always been a Rubes staple, from the old days. It was the B side of "Wild Thing." Then Alex (Carlin) came back from his stint at Columbia University. He joined The Pineapple. Jon and I quit, because we didn't really have time to do it. Jon and Alex started writing songs together, which wound up being a great thing, because...well, there is another element of what makes some bands really good is the whole thing of at that age...guys who are hanging around together have their own lingo and their own taste and their own inbred thing. It's a thing that they do naturally. That became what The Pineapple was putting in their songs. You know, like stuff that wouldn't make much sense to somebody outside The Pineapple but at the same time could be very amusing.
Q: Like "Head Cheese."
TD: Yeah. That's Henry's great contribution.
Q: And it's based on a true life thing where...
TD: Henrikas would actually eat like head cheese and, you know, and chitlins and weird stuff like that. Jon Seabury claims it's so that other people wouldn't eat his food.
Q: Certainly a good story.
TD: Yeah. Very possibly and element of truth to that. So they started writing all the songs and they started gigging. They were opening for the Rubes a lot, to the chagrin of some people. Some people really hated The Pineapple a lot. But there was definitely a contingent that loved them. You know, certainly we were in that camp. Since, we were hanging around with them all the time, a lot of cross breeding went on. Jon and Alex used to live together. I'd go over there all the time and they'd be playing music together all the time. Whatever came to mind. The Psychotic Pineapple, I guess Dan brought them into the studio to do their album. Also, (John) Cuniberti recorded them before that album, which he denies to this day. But I remember having a cassette that he had made of them just set up and playing in the studio. Or maybe they just did the tracks and then did the vocals, you know, like quick. Songs like "I Need Somebody" by Question Mark and the Mysterians. It was really great. I wish we had that recording. It's gotta be somewhere. So Dan made their album, Where's The Party?, which I love to this day. It's got "Head Cheese" on it. With the Picture of Pine-O-Man on the front. John (Seabury) did such an incredible job on the posters. The posters were like half the thing. I remember The Pineapple playing gigs where they would do, like their version of I-A-Gadda-Da-Vida and everyone would leave the stage for the drum solo so it would seem like it was 15 minutes long. I remember one gig where it was like "come on already with the drum solo!" It had gone on what seemed like for most of the set. Then other guys come back finally and play the last minute of the tune. You know, people are just, "oh, God, this is HORRIBLE!" And Dan Alexander is standing up after the song and yelling "Mind blowing! Mind blowing! Unbelievable! Mind blowing!"
Q: He was not wrong.
TD: Absolutely not wrong.
Q: So what else did the Psychotic Pineapple entertainment statement consist of?
TD: There was a lot of elements to it. One, which was Alex's Porto Organ, which was this thing made in Italy, which just had the most fantastic cheesy sound. If you can believe it, it sounded cheesier than a Farfisa. On the violin setting, it should just been called a "buzz." Those guys just had a taste factor between them that, uh, kind of the more annoying, the better. Just great. But they were writing really cool pop songs, I thought. Like "Hang on for your Life" is a great song. Really cool lyrics and a good groove. And it quotes "The Four Tops" in the middle, musically. (Director's Commentary: I think the quote is from "Bernadette.") Of course, you know, they wore nice psychedelic clothes, which you didn't see much of in those days. And Henrikas just sort of had a presence about him. I don't even know how to describe it. What a lot of people would just find to be annoying, but was really great.
At this point, we ran out of tape. This will not be Tommy's final appearence as wise couselor to Geezer Rockers, I am sure. But this is the end of his personal story.
©2007 Edward Dean Chance. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
